I recently posted some images from Marcus Ansell in which he shared with us the tables they are amassing at the Wargames Foundry for gaming sessions. They are typical of modern, contoured boards and certainly look impressive, especially when compared with my tables of yore - a few books with a grass paper mat rolled over the top, lumps of lichen for bushes or trees and cut up scouring pads for hedgerows.
Oldhammer has its roots in nostalgia, there is no argument there. Some sceptics may suggest a fresh rose tinted haze about fantasy gaming's past that cannot be compared to modern, CAD designed models and scenery, but that is missing the point, and also, as you will see, completely untrue.
One thing that 2000pt two player gaming and the growing commercialisation (particularly by GW) of scenery itself has created, are fairly unambitious wargaming boards. They're fit for purpose of course, but that purpose is to accommodate fairly small plastic armies fighting armylist influenced non-narrative games. These boards are often as soulless and ubiquitous as the miniatures, rules and armylists themselves
Sadly, this has even crept into historical gaming, though some wargaming groups and manufacturers buck the trend...
Such as...
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| Corunna at Salute 2012 by Essex Gamesters - a worthy show winner. Just look at the ambition and scale of this game! |
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| The game came complete with a finely modelled town and dock. |
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| The size and shape of the table blew me away when I saw it - as did the attention to detail, just look at this frigate! |
You can see that the Essex Gamesters worked together to create something incredibly impressive and ultimately show stopping.
This must be the future ambition of the Oldhammer Movement, surely? If Thantsants can create something as astonishing as his Orc's Drift set up on his own, what could we produce all working together as the Gamesters did? Perhaps a self developed scenario such as those under discussion here?
Thanks to Nico (he of the marvellous paint job) we now have some proper Oldhammer inspiration to draw upon, namely, old school tables produced in the '80s by gaming groups to play Second and Third Edition Warhammer on.
Check these out!
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| The Player's Guild Games Table from Games Day '86 |
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| Another example of the Player's Guild and their '80s wargames tables. This one looks like its got space for the entire Warhammer Townscape building collection! |
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| A colour photograph if the '86 table from the other direction. |
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| A section of the famous WFB3 games table. |
The difference is simple. The larger boards have been created by larger groups of gamers who want a memorable experience and who are willing to put a great deal of time and effort into scenarios, miniatures and scenery. The smaller boards are for simplistic unambitious 'cleanse and burn' style gaming among two rather small (but shockingly expensive) armies where the emphasis is that everything is done for you and can be bought off the shelf. The battlefields would look much the same in gaming clubs from London, to Washington D.C to Sydney.
Highstreet gaming at its most banal!
Don't get me wrong, there are some outstanding and remarkable tables out there, many of which use the products described above, but these are, sadly, few and far between. If the Oldhammer Movement is going to one day do a show and start promoting the ethos publically, we must follow the lead of our WFB3 playing forebears and produce a table that does the fantastic miniatures that we spend so much time collecting and painting, total justice.
Opinions?
Orlygg.
Couldn't agree more. The sad sight of unpainted armies shuffling across barren nowheresville is one of the reasons that i got fed up with the GW hobby. Where is the love? The passion? The spectacle? If you need a hand building something stupendous I'm a technology teacher in hertfordshire and i'd be only too happy to help if not plan and build like a maniac! Looking at some of the tables above makes me think of some border princes fastness being threatened by a mass of the badlands baddest and being defended by mercenaries in pay of an Imperial Baron on the make, hoping to swindle the castle and lands out of the hands of a grateful prince!
ReplyDeleteThanks for the offer of help. When Oldhammer goes on the road we need to think BIG and create something with real Old School Spectacle. By this I don't just mean rehashing old fantasy archetypes but trying to do something a little more... what's the word... chaotic?
DeleteLooking at the scenario ideas you floated, my first thoughts were of a massive wall breached by diabolical chaos dwarf siege engines and the desperate fighting to keep the hobgoblins and ogres and other more chaotic allies out of noble Cathay. Or. A harbour in Nippon attacked by waterborn chaotic marauders. or. A town in the empire where the castle at it's heart has erupted from within with the energies of chaos as a sorceror of unequalled power opens a portal for the powers of darkness to enter the domain of man. The castle is warped and ruined, the very ground rent with the powers forcing their way through it's walls!
DeleteHmmm. Might be getting a tad carried away!
Interesting post, but keep in mind what you're comparing in the pics. The first are showcase tables made to make an impact, while the modern example is, as you rightly say, an example of what anyone can do 'off the shelf'. If you have a look at the display tables produced for Games Days these days you'll see they're every bit as amazing, and often made by the same people (Dave Andrews for example, one of the longest serving staff members at GW is still making their terrain to this day).
ReplyDeleteYou are quite right. However, I was talking about gamers and the tables they create for themselves rather than 'professional' modellers who do large, one off tables for shows.
DeleteThe Players Guild built and played on tables like the ones in the pictures regularly or so it seems. Tables of similar ambition and size were certainly far more common in the '80s, as far as I can remember anyway!
Right then; the first Oldhammer display game (possibly at Salute next year) should include a village, river with impressive bridge (maybe an estuary with beach & light house), fortification & siege works, fields of crops on borders of said village, a sailing ship or merchant vessel. If members of the Blood forum make a terrain piece each we'll be sorted! Oh, and we'll also need a beautiful contoured board and great swathes of minis to fight over it. Maybe someone should start a thread!
ReplyDeleteGreat to see some enthusiasm! You are quite right, many hands make light work, which is how the tables in the post above came to be. I still feel its better to construct something around a prepared scenario rather than just going willy-nilly, but you are right. Any good table would need a range of different 'areas' to exploit, both in modelling and game terms.
DeleteImpressive, really impressive! I like this post, unusual and a little bit nostalgic...fantastic pictures!
ReplyDeletePhil.
You have Nico to thank for them.I think he said they were from some '80s Citadel publication in French.
DeleteI suppose the more stuff that is available off the shelf, the more similar tables are going to look, but certainly a lot of gaming tables now are lacking in imagination and colour (I mean real bright colours, as your pictures show). Back in the day when we were kids, the Players Guild tables were mind boggling as we did not have the know how or confidence to make such things and I daresay a lot of GW tables out there and in shops are made by or for youngsters. I well remember hanging out by the PG table at Games Day 83 or 84 where there was a scale model of the Citadel castle, an orc galleon and balloon and dwarf hangliders among other things ...
ReplyDeleteA scale model of the Citadel Castle!? Now that is an idea!
DeleteInteresting post! I was drooling over those old pics on Nico's page earlier today and the Salute ones are jaw-dropping as well.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with Andy. I've seen a lot of beautiful, painstakingly created tables for casual play that are every bit as detailed as these (if smaller!) The current GW example really isn't all that terrible. It lacks the imagination and creativity of the old battlescapes but time and effort still went into it, and I'd take that over the old 'blanket and books' approach. There are a good amount of modern gamers who liken the table and its terrain to a 'third army'. The much maligned modern rulesets heavily emphasize the use of terrain and people searching for games with more depth understand the importance of a well-stocked battlefield.
On the other hand however, I have had more games than I can count where the terrain placement step was either shortened or ignored outright in favor of a quick and bloody battle. The elaborate (and gorgeous) themed tables at my LGS are often vacant. Totally uninspiring and a huge bummer to boot.
As I'm working on a home table there will be great discussion and reference here I'm sure!
I am looking forward to seeing what your home table turns out like Mr Monster.
DeleteIf you are calling comrades to arms to create a wonderful centrepiece gaming table for a future Oldhammer get together then that is fantastic. We need a project and a project manager and some willing dogsbodies to get stuff made painted and done. Let's move forward.
ReplyDeleteIf you are trying to denigrate the Realm of Battle board, I can't say I'm with you on that. They travel well and they store well. They look ok naked and they are robust. They are easily transformable with a few bits of eye-catching terrain.
I have one as well as two other more traditional boards and a battle-mat. All easy to store and a necessary compromise because of space.
My club has had to downgrade it's boards since the 80s because of decreasing storage space at the venue, which has had to charge more for storage and let more people have access to cover costs, leading to concerns over blocked doors and fire regs etc etc. The truth is, simple boards have helped the club survive.
I admire your support for high standards and the uncompromising aesthetic principles you are discussing, but inspiring us and praising one aspect of the hobby (show tables) with one stroke while belittling an altogether separate facet (home/club tables) with the next is a confused and unproductive message.
I think your final comments are rightly justified Mr Warlord. Each table should be judged on its own merits, regardless of its size or purpose. In hindsight, the post needed a little more balance and I should have held fire on its publication rather than getting dragged forth on a tidalwave of passion.
DeleteI won't knock your passion, it is there for all to see and a virtue.
DeleteThis post made me wonder, how do you make a home table that is both as detailed (if only smaller) but can be taken down and changed easily for the next battle? It seems like these landscapes were carved out of styrofoam sheets and painted/flocked, which means they were pretty much 1-time tables?
ReplyDeleteA good question. I have always imagined that the larger tables reflected a place where there were many conflicts over the years, though fighting battles over the same table was never really a problem for us because games were always narrative rather than competitive. Then come the scenarios. A good one can be played over and over and the table set up will never change. Ultimately, a table is going to be restricted by the needs of those who are going to play upon it but should only be limited by the stretch of their imaginations.
DeleteI always admired those huge show tables that wee were shown in gaming clubs in wd back in the day .. and the the imaginative vertical diorama tables created by Dave Andrews, I know my own attempts at the time were very simple things created using household objects.. this forced me to use my imagination to overcome the shortfalls in my early designs.. no bad thing .. I actually tip my hat to GW for creating off the shelf game boards ....they fill a gap in the market for folks, often children without the time or skill to create such things yes they are identikit ,but with a little imagination i think they can be easily as impressive as any show board .. I do wish they created more varied terrain though.. and focussed on it as least as much as the miniatures.. after all its the environment that sets the tone for any game.
ReplyDeleteSome of my most memorable games were played on simple cardboard printouts of space hulk floor plans .. were my imagination and the flexibility of the tiles allowed many varied scenarios .. of course if I took photos of them they would look crap , but that's not the point .. is it..
non modular diorama tables as beautiful as they are can become repetitive..
its seems to me that you are unfairly trying to compare different tables used for different things .. i don't think one is better than the other just different.
I suppose you use whatever you have to hand , I have seen many visually impressive , imaginative and detailed small boards , that equal if not surpass those huge display boards.... the recent inq28 boards for small skirmish gaming used at the inqvitational events used mostly Citadel boards yet still were beautiful and imaginative.
although I know what you are saying .. the gw battle board suffers the same problem as the legion of identikit marine armies .. not enough imagination really , really.. something gw could help alleviate by releasing much more varied terrain and better promoting variation of gaming styles, skirmish .. roleplay etc..
i am personally working on some old hammer stuff utilizing the new plastics .. and i have to say i do am enjoyibg it ;-)
still I do enjoy your informative blog and your passion , great stuff really I hope it continues.
regards Neil101
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ReplyDeleteI think in a lot of ways, Oldhammer can be described by it's love of narrative. Many of the older miniatures (when they ALL had names), scenarios and tables had a strong sense of story running through them. Look at the Realm of Chaos warbands, essentially the tale of a single champion and his minions. Many of the Oldhammer aficionados are creating armies, characters or whatnot with a strong theme, background or progressing story. Look at Thantsants and the famous Orc's Drift project. This, perhaps is what is lacking in more recent times. Warlord A, 250 points attacks unit B, 450 points. (though hands up, I love tourney gaming, but I love story more) This translates into more homogeneous table. Generic desert, tundra, wilderness etc. I think the ethos behind Oldhammer would need to translate into the tables. A table which tells a story before a single miniature is placed.
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